What Would I Do If My Daughter Told Me She Was Gay?

My oldest daughter, Charis, is four, so hopefully we’re a little while away from having any sort of sex talk. But at some point in the future I’m sure I’ll be talking to Charis, along with the rest of my kids, about sexuality, and there’s the possibility that one of my kids will experience homosexual attraction.

What would I do if Charis told me that she was experiencing homosexual attractions?

The first thing I’d do is give her a giant hug and tell her that nothing, nothing, nothing can ever change my love for her. She’s my precious little girl, and nothing is ever going to change that. I’d thank her for telling me about her feelings and tell her that she can always tell me anything, no matter how big or small. I want my kids to feel comfortable telling me anything, and to know that I won’t get angry with them no matter what they tell me.

I’d tell her that God loves her even more than I do. He created her in his image, and because of that, she is precious to him. He sent his son to die for her sins, which also proves that she is precious to him.

Then I’d tell her that if she follows Jesus, her sexuality is not her identity. Her identity is rooted in Christ. She is a child of God who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in her. Her fundamental identity is not her sexual desires, her fundamental identity is as a forgiven sinner, united to Christ, full of the Holy Spirit. That’s what Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 5:17 when he said:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

I’d say, “Sweetie, if you follow after Jesus, your identity is as a new creation in Jesus. These desires that you’re experiencing don’t define who you are. Jesus defines who you are. You are his. You belong to him. That is your identity. It’s who you are.”

Then I’d gently take her hand and say, “Charis, following Jesus is really costly. Jesus even said that we have to die to ourselves. He said we have to take up our cross and follow him. That means submitting every facet of our lives to King Jesus, including our sexual desires. If you’re going to follow Jesus, you’re going to have to submit these desires to Jesus. You can’t give in to them because the Bible says that any sexual expression outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is wrong.”

She might ask, “Will God take these desires away from me?”

“I don’t know,” I’d say. “But I do know this – he’ll give you the power not to give in to them. That’s the beauty of the gospel. Jesus forgives all of our sins and then gives us the power not to give in to our sinful desires. And it will be hard, and it will be costly, and there will be times when you will feel lonely, but Jesus is worth it. He is so worth it. When you hear Jesus say, ‘Well done good and faithful servant’, it will be worth it!”

“But why do I have these desires?” she might ask.

“Well sweetie,” I’d say. “Sin has distorted every person’s sexuality. Every time I’m tempted to lust after a woman, that’s a distortion of my sexuality. Every time you’re tempted to lust after a person of the same sex, that’s also distortion. See, you and I are the same. It just works itself out a little bit differently. We both desperately need Jesus. But the wonderful thing is, Jesus is in the process of repairing the distortions. He gives me power to not give in to lust, even though it feels really strong at times. He can give you that same power. And someday, when he comes back, everything sad and broken will finally be undone.”

Then I’d say, “You know what? We’ll keep talking about this, but right now, let’s go get ice cream”.

UPDATE: I’ve turned off the comments at this point. Things were starting to get a bit out of hand. If you’d like to talk about this in person with me I’d love to talk on Skype or something like that.

Comments

  1. Harrison says

    Absolutely fantastic. This hits deeper than just your daughter. It speaks out to all people who struggle with sexual sin. This will effect more than just you and your kids. Everyone needs to see this.

    Bravo.

  2. Bob Vigneault says

    Well done Stephen. I believe this will help a whole bunch of parents to lay down a healthy foundation and guide them when they find themselves in similar conversations. This area is going to become a true pressure cooker within the church. Thanks for posting.

  3. allison says

    You are so wise. Thanks…. How can I save that in my mental bank of " what to do if…"?

  4. Nick Harvey says

    Way to express The Fathers Heart for us, such a biblical example of how we as Christians should act towards those that struggle the the gay lifestyle not just within our family’s, it is so important that we love first?”He first loved us”

    Blessings to you my friend thank you for posting this i’ve gotta share this

  5. says

    As a father of two young girls one of which is four also I have thought about this a lot and what you came up with is a lot better. I really appreciate your clear thinking.

  6. IndyBareBear says

    OK – I want to preface this post by saying this: You are free to have your beliefs and I respect that. But let me give you a perspective from the other side. I don't know you and I only happened upon this blog post from a Facebook friend. But I have to tell you something: Jesus is not the answer, a life of lonely desperation is not the answer, and one cannot pray away the gay. The truth is, and this what people in your situation do, the answer lies with one's personal walk with their faith. We must reconcile our faith with our own God. Jesus did indeed say take up your cross and follow me. But God did not create me to be a lonely creature bereft of the companionship and completeness He created us for. The thing that always amazes me about how people feel about homosexuality is that they have not point of reference unless they are one themselves. The advice you would give your daughter should be this: "find your own peace with your God and who you are. I cannot give you the answers to this, you must seek them out yourself. I can tell you how I feel and what I think you should do, but you are going to have to come to peace with it yourself." Matthew Chapter 19:11-12 – 11 Jesus replied, Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by othersand there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it. I think what Jesus is trying to say here is that if you are not one of the eunuchs are "born that way" then you can't understand it because you were not born that way. But if you can sympathize, then you should. Jesus was not a conservative, that is plain and simple. Paul was that is truth. And Paul may have struggled with homosexuality himself, we don't know. He sure wrote about enough, but Jesus, in this one simple often overlook passage, details how He and the Father view "eunuchs." Code word for homosexuals, look it up. If you have a child that comes to you and says "Dad I think I am gay," then for the love of God and your child, allow them to find the answers on their own, don't drive a wedge between you. It sounds to me like you are a good man who loves his children, don't make the same mistake made by so many other so-called Christian parents.

    • Stephen Altrogge says

      Thanks for your response, I really appreciate it. And I appreciate your honesty.

      I think where you and I differ is on our view of God. You say that you need to find "your own peace with your God". The only problem is, God is not my God. I don't get to define him, he defines me. I don't have the right to decide what God is like and what he's not like. I simply have to submit myself to who he is and what he has revealed about himself in the Bible. I can't tell my daughter to make peace with her own God. She must make peace with the real God who really exists and has created sexuality.

      You also seem to have created your own definition what God created you for. We were created by God for his purpose and we are called to submit our lives to his purpose. We don't get to decide why God created us.

      • IndyBareBear says

        And I respectfully disagree! LOL – I am HAPPY with where I am with God. I hold all things up to Him and ask Him what I should do. I read the Bible, I pray, I get convicted when I feel I have done something wrong and sinned against him. Where I do not get convicted is where I am with Him and my "sexuality" God and I made peace about that a long time ago when I left BJU. God gives us all the gift of desire. The desire to be with the one person who completes us with Him. He send people into our lives for a reason. And I can't believe that God made me who I am as some kind of cruel lifetime test to see if I can with hold my desire to be with the man I love versus holding Him closer. That is simply a test that no man or woman can bear! You should the book "The Children Are Free" by Jeff Miner and Tyler Connely. This is a well researched view of what the Bible says about homosexuality and why.

      • Standing-n-liberty says

        and Stephen you are creating your own God. You are deciding which elements of scripture to hold to, which to weigh more heavily, and which to dismiss. You are not holding to the full counsel of God, if you are not adhering to all of the revealed law. this is why there are so many denominations within Christianity; all have a slightly different interpretation of God. If you claim yours is the only viable and true version, then you are arrogant and guilty of sin in that very thought.

        • Kitty says

          I agree full heartedly. And as IndyBareBear said "one cannot pray away the gay. " I know if my parents had told me that the feelings I had were against god I would have been appalled and left the house to never look back. The feelings are really…. I've always had them. I'd say I was born with them. I know if my "true partner" were female I would not turn my back on her because it would be a sin. No, god made it so we could love regardless of who it is.

  7. godsabundantgirl says

    Wowzers! That was awesome! I often wonder about this myself, my flesh is often tempted to hold one sin above another like homosexuality is worse than gluttony but while I know this is a distorted view I never quite know how to handle such things. This is a beautiful example! Thank you!

  8. Elaine says

    Thanks, Stephen, excellent example of compassion and the truth! Why do we (that would mainly be me!) so often believe the two do not go together? Remembering all the young men I cared for who believed there was no room for them at the cross because of their homosexual desires – many believed the lies that they were defined only by those desires and that there was no forgiveness for any sexual sin, much less homosexual sin. It breaks my heart that so many believe Christ would be quick to condemn them instead of quick to forgive and restore them if only they would turn to Him.

    Thanks for the encouragement and the reminder, Stephen. I appreciate it.

    • IndyBareBear says

      Again this is the distorted view that causes so many gay men to turn away from you. You view us as broken, when the truth is you are broken as I am. You just think you are better than me because God "made you right." But we have ALL sinned and come short, and you are right in that going 31 in a 30 MPH zone is no greater sin than loving someone of the same gender, but we all SIN every day of our lives! We can't not sin. The only "restoration" required is for you guys to get over this idea that we need to be in the first place. Sin is SIN! And we are all mired in it every day, we are called to turn away from sin but we can't. And having Jesus in your heart does NOT prevent you from sinning. If you read Matthew 19:11-12 you will see that Jesus says unless you are one you don't get it and don't even try! Allow us the dignity of finding our own walk with our Creator -t eh God who made us what we are! Don't relegate us to a life of loneliness because it doesn't make you feel icky to think about what we do in the bedroom! Believe me, we don't define you for what you do in yours and contrary to popular belief we don't obsess about what what you do or with whom you do it! STOP. DOING. IT. TO. US!

      • malap says

        IndyBareBear: I am not as gracious as the author who wrote this post. He nailed it spot on. If you were to actually go back and read it, he is not condemnatory, but loving, just as he should be. What I am sensing from your previous post as well as this reply is that you actually do not agree that homosexuality is wrong. The author did a fantastic job of calling sin "sin," especially in the sexual realm, as we must realize that sexual sin is expressed not only through homosexuality but also through heterosexual infidelity, et al. Go back and re-read Stephen's article – he says it better than me. The point is still the same: homosexuality is a sin. There is no right expression of it. This is why we need to learn to curb our sexual appetites and conform to God's word. Part of our duty as Christians is to learn to subject ourselves to the written, revealed will of God and teach others to do the same. For us not to do this, especially with our own children is a sin and we will be held accountable. Don't forget what James says: "for him that knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin."

        I predict that you're going to label me a hater, but I'm not. But you cannot go around and respond to everybody's post saying that homosexuality is okay and that we need to just accept it. Truth is not on a sliding scale; it is not subjective. Truth is truth; morality exists and the standard is set by God. Yes, we all (me included) struggle with sin, and for each of us that takes a different form, but we must all obey God and say "yes" to what he says "yes" to and "no" to what he says "no" to.

        • IndyBareBear says

          I am not going to label you a hater, that is not my style. My goal is to educate. The problem I have with Bible beating is just what you posted above. I have found a passage in the book of Matthew that gives me peace with my walk with God and all you want to do it find another one or two or five, that you feel support your point of view. Good for you, if that gives you peace then by all means go with it. But I have found my peace with that passage, and I use it as a lens to read every thing else that Jesus said. I personally don't put much stock in what James said, or Paul said, or Timothy or anyone else. Jesus is the author of my salvation and what he says is the MOST important to me. Read Curt's posting below. I am not sure if most Christians have a problem with the fact that gay people can be happy in a monogamous committed relationship or the fact that they are trapped in a loveless marriage themselves. Most, not all, but most, of the gay men I know that are in good solid relationships are happier than the gay men I know who are not. That is truth, that is living within the design of God. Being with one person who makes you happy until death do you part.

        • Standing-n-liberty says

          malap: You miss the preceding thought in James. "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor?" (4:12) James was condemning Christians who set up their own ideas as the standards for others or who lord their superior spirituality over their neighbor. The point of verse 17 is to say that knowing to do right (like loving your neighbors as yourself, averting governmental authority (speeding), etc.) and not doing it is as much a sin as anything else.

      • Stephen Altrogge says

        Hey man,

        I think you may be missing something of what I wrote. I don't view you as any more broken than me. I desperately need Jesus to change me from my sin.

        My concern for you is that you seem to under the impression that each person can find his own path and define their own walk with the Creator. Unfortunately, that's simply not true. God is God. He defines how I relate to him and he defines what is right and wrong. I'm a sinner, just like you. Jesus is the one who gives me the power to overcome my sin.

        I'm also concerned that you're taking refuge in a pretty odd interpretation of Matthew 19:11-12. A eunuch was a person that did not have any sexual intercourse with anyone. It's not a code word for homosexuals. A eunuch was someone who usually worked close with a queen, and was thus castrated so that he would not be tempted sexually toward her. To say that this passage is describing homosexuality just isn't true.

        Please hear me, I don't look down on you one bit. I have friends and relatives who are gay. I love them. I care about them. But I have to hold to God's truth on this. That's my only option.

        • IndyBareBear says

          I hate this thing that most religious people do! MY GOD IS THE ONE TRUE GOD AND MY VIEW OF HIM IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS RIGHT! That is SOOOOOO not what Christ is about! I really wish people would quit reading all the other books in the Bible and focus on who Jesus was and what he said. No one comes to the Father except through me! Man decided a long time ago what books to put into the Bible and which ones to leave out. If they would have just made up a collection of the teachings of Jesus there would have been so much less trouble. The problem is that now every "christian" thinks that if your view of God is not the same as mine, you are going to hell and I might as well help you get there faster. I am not saying that you are advocating this view, but that is what we who walk this path with our God see. you condemn while claiming to love yet refuse to give us the benefit of the doubt that WE who walk the path think we just MIGHT know what we are talking about, because you are uncomfortable with our sexuality. STOP! Stop trying to speak for God. We KNOW His plan for our lives and it's not what you think it is!

          • Standing-n-liberty says

            The Bible is a manmade collection of books, decided upon by church councils throughout the centuries. Some books barely made it (Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes); others were cut because the church of the time disagreed with what was in them. Some of the works by inspired men were just lost.

            And Stephen, if you are going to throw out "odd interpretations", please explain to me why yours is the right one. If you are going to reply with the answer of church tradition, then I would challenge you to follow church tradition in all of your worship and theology. Your interpretation of "eunuch" dismisses the "some of you were born this way" clause. How would a eunuch be born that way, knowing he was going to work for a queen someday? I don't think so. So, again, I challenge you to a more thorough research of linguistics, theology, and church history.

            • Stephen Altrogge says

              Guys, I would be more than glad to talk to you about this in person over Skype or something like that. I feel like this comment discussion isn't going anywhere, and most of what I say simply gets met with animosity. I really would be glad to talk about this more, but an extended comment thread is not going to be particularly profitable. Let me know if this is something you would be interested in doing.

  9. Nathan Dahlhauser says

    Or just tell her that she will figure things out as she grows older. Maybe it is a phase, maybe the feelings are real. Letting a child figure out who they are is essential to development, rather than telling them that what they are feeling is wrong. he could tell his daughter that she is who she is and that is okay because he won't stop loving her regardless of anything. He could tell her that as long as no one is being hurt, then she should do what makes her happy and feel comfortable. The issue with telling her what he says he would is that, while he makes it seem so simple and accepting, it tells the her that she is broken and her feelings are wrong. She may smile and tell her dad that she loved him and continue talking about it (after ice cream of course! :) ) but as she grows older and begins to realize who she is as a person, her likes and dislikes, who she loves and who she wants to be, she will feel like an outcast in her own home, more alone than ever. I know it seems like a stretch but it happens all the time to young teens who are already alone and unsure of themselves. What should be done is a hug and a talk telling her that it's okay to be who she is. If no one is being hurt, then she should be happy and leave it at that. There need be no invocation of unproven books or teachings unless both sides ate presented equally. There is enough telling children what is right and what is wrong. Why not leave their identity for them to figure out on their own?

    • says

      So say I like to drink, and I get drunk all the time because it fells good that's OK because no one got hurt? Or I have sex with everyone who is willing, and it feels good, it's OK because no one got hurt? But if I was angry and killed people because it feels good, it's not OK because people did get hurt? Those are all sins in the Bible, and NO SIN is good. Don't you think if I was a friend/relitive of this drunken sexual killer, I shouldn't tell them this is not right to do these things in God's eyes ? God said (the one and only god) love the sinner, but hate the sin.
      Putting faith and the Bible aside, it is just human nature male /male or female/female sexual relationships are not natural

      • Horace says

        I don't feel like either of you really read the post. Stephen's approach isn't telling her she is broken. And Stephen's approach isn't telling her just to grow up and get over her sin. Stephen is saying that if we follow Christ then we look to him for our identity, not to ourselves or our desires or our parents. And following Christ isn't fun and games and do whatever you want. But it's good. It's good in a really good way.

  10. Curt says

    I appreciate your heart Stephen. You have a loving spirit about you – and I connect with that. I completely disagree that same sex attraction is a distortion of our sexuality, just as I would disagree that opposite sex attraction is a distortion of our sexuality. Same sex and opposite sex attractions are just that – attractions. There is nothing inherently wrong or sinful about that. The question of morality is what do we do with those attractions. You stated that "every time I’m tempted to lust after a woman, that’s a distortion of my sexuality. Every time you’re tempted to lust after a person of the same sex, that’s also distortion". So the flip side of that line of thinking is also true: for you to live in committed relationship with your wife is a wonderful blessing from God. The same goes for your daughter (if she were gay) – for her to live in committed relationship with another woman as her partner is also a wonderful blessing from God. After going through an Exodus ex-gay ministry, God's grace finally broke through the deception I was living under which states that homosexuality is a sin and a distortion of God's plan. I have now been with my partner for 17 years (legally married for 7 years) and serve on pastoral staff at a church in Vancouver, BC. I fully believe that the church will eventually realize its error on the subject of homosexuality (just as it has realized its error on many subjects throughout history – always using the Bible to support those errors), issue apologies, and then seek to make amends to its gay and lesbian members. The justifications from the Bible that have been wrongly used to support these errors surrounding homosexuality will be recognized as such – a misuse of Scripture. So when I see situations like this on dealing with a particular LGBT issue – even though it is very well-intended and coming from a good heart – I have to say something. The church is changing on this issue – thank God! The Spirit is working. And I am grateful. Rich blessings and peace to you and your family Stephen!

    • Stephen Altrogge says

      Thanks for your comments Curt. Thanks for being honest. You're absolutely right that it is a blessing to live with my wife. I obviously would disagree with you, however, that a loving, monomagous homosexual relationship is in line with the word of God. How do you justify that from the Bible?

      And by the way, I'm not a big fan of the whole reparative movement. It seems like it causes more damage than good.

      • IndyBareBear says

        So Stephen do you honestly think that God wants us to live our entire lives as celibate?

        • Brian says

          It sure saves a lot of heartache. If you're sleeping around from person to person it just takes a piece of your soul away. God says in His Word to keep the marriage bed undefiled–that sex should be reserved for marriage. Like I said it saves heartache and pain in the future. I sure didn't listen to what God says in His Word and I've been paying the consequences of not remaining celibate. I told myself that I would be celibate before marriage and I knew what God said but I felt like 'well I have a guy who has feelings for me and what he says must be true" and so I fell into this trap and though I didn't go "all the way" with him it made me feel guilty and I regret this awful sin. Though I didn't commit sexual immorality from person to person just committing this kind of immorality with just 1 person is enough to send a person on the road of destruction. I wish I was still pure and I can never get it back.

          There is a REASON why God wants us to remain celibate if we are not married.

      • Curt says

        Haha…..I accidentally posted my reply to your reply as a new post. DUH! My bad…..

  11. Curt says

    The reparative therapy movement is, IMHO, an exercise in futility. I was previously married to a woman, so when I entered the Exodus ministry, I went into it excited and hopeful. I truly believed that I would change – I was not cynical at all. After 15 months, there were lots of changes going on with me – changes in understanding who I am, changes around honesty and authenticity, and changes in my health and wholeness as a Christian. But absolutely NO changes in my sexuality. So over about 4 years or so in a wonderfully loving Christian community, I was able to reconcile who I am with my faith. The Biblical, theological, psychological, and existential evidence is in regarding homosexuality and Christian faith – there is no conflict between the two. I truly believe that this is another issue in church history that 100s of years from now, people will look back on this, scratch their head in bewilderment, and question how the church could have gotten it so wrong on the issue of sexuality.
    In terms of the Biblical evidence, there's lots to talk about of course. There is no consistent sexual ethic related to marriage in the Bible. The families of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob with multiple wives certainly is not the "one man one woman" ethic that many believe the creation narrative in Genesis supports. And polygamy was never condemned – it was assumed in the writing of those passages re: Abraham. It's not until you get to the writing of Paul that the one man/one woman model begins to emerge. That's just one of many discussions around the Bible and sexuality. Lots more as you well know! So I'm posting a link to an article by a Presbyterian minister (who is straight) on the "clobber passages" (that's the term used to refer to the 5-6 passages in the Bible that supposedly condemn homosexuality and have been used to "clobber" gay and lesbian folk :). His approach – more than any other I've read – most closely aligns with my interpretation of those passages. It's a good general summary for you to read – and know that's sort of my take on all this.
    I'm sure you won't agree with me on this nor I with you. I just wish you could experience the grace of God in the lives of us LGBT Christians. That's usually what changes hearts – to interact in the lives of gay believers. That's what changed the hearts of the early church in regards to welcoming the Gentiles into the community. (Acts 10:1 – 48). Their Scriptures of the day condemned the eating of unclean animals. Yet while Peter was praying on the rooftop, this sheet descended from heaven full of unclean animals. To further confuse the situation, God commanded Peter to "Get up, kill and eat."- a direct violation of the Bible as Peter had understood it. We all know that this vision signified a big change in the thinking and practice of the church – Gentiles (previously considered unclean based on their Bible) were now invited into the community of faith. I believe that today we're having another Acts 10 moment in the life of the church: gays and lesbians – previously viewed as unclean, sinful, and not part of God's plan – are now being welcomed into the community. The Spirit's call to the church today is clear: "Do not call unclean what I've called clean". Sorry Stephen – give a preacher a pulpit and he can't help but preach. LOL Just wanted to share that…..
    Here's the link to the post I referenced earlier…… http://www.thegodarticle.com/7/post/2011/10/clobb

  12. Silas R. D says

    To Curt & Nathan Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? It didn't turn out very good for them. what you'll are doing is tweaking the bible for your own personal lusts. You say Poul was the first one to talk about one man and one woman? howbeit Adam and eve? (Y don't you like the genesis 'narrative' ?) God said it was good. and I know we probably cant change each others minds but I thought I should remind you that yes the question of morality is what we do with our "attractions" and what you did is you gave in to them….. you did what was easy…. what was fun…. you didn't carry the cross. And when the church was supposed to change (eating the unclean food )God came down from heaven has He done that yet? I know that was not the best argument but consider. And as you've studied your bible I'm sure you've heard about Christ being the head, bridegroom etc and the church being the body or bride? we are to be like Christ.

    Thank you Stephen.

    • Another Pilgrim says

      AD SILAS
      I thought that both Stephan and Curt raised the whole debate on homosexuality to a whole new level and I got the feeling that there was no condemnation coming from either. This is befitting of followers and imitators of Christ.
      Perhaps if you re-read your comment you will see that, maybe unwittingly, you have gone back to repeating what comes very close to what in South Africa we would refer to as 'hate speech"; please allow me to explain.
      You ask, " … ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah?" meaning this is what awaits Curt???? Are you, Silas, totally certain it was homosexuality and only homosexuality the brought destruction on these towns?
      You then follow this up with a bit of condemnation which, I'm loath to say, would make a Pharisee a little proud, namely " … and what you did is you gave in to them….. you did what was easy…. what was fun…. you didn't carry the cross." Could we later chat about Romans 8 : 1 et seq especially after what Curt has spoken of.
      You conclude with " We are to be like Christ"; are you perhaps inferring that Stephan, who appears understanding of the issues and Curt who is approaching the issue as he understands it, are not and you are?
      Speaking to all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ out there; I think we need to follow the lead of Stephan and hear Curt on these matters lest we eventually arrive at the Great White Throne and are asked to account for all the gay and lesbian folk who we have hated right out of His Church into the arms of Satan.
      Thank you Stephan and Curt for your loving nature that seems to be like Christ's

  13. Tammy says

    Jesus corrected every other misinterpretation and misunderstanding that the Jews of His day had with the Bible. Yet, we are to believe that He somehow "forgot" to correct their misinterpretations on homosexuality? I think not.

    Excellent article. Deep sadness for those who continue to willfully disobey. We all have our crosses to bear.

    • Standing-n-liberty says

      What misunderstandings did Jesus correct? He summarized the whole of the law and the prophets with "Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Unless I missed something. I am looking for the bible where he corrected the part about lying with a woman on her period. I missed the part where he did away with the condemnation on shrimp. I missed the part where he did away with beards on ministers of God. I missed the part about doing away with dove sacrifices. You want to dismiss all of these, yet hold to the one stuck right in the middle of Leviticus. Jesus corrected the idea of divorce and said that it shouldn't happen. Anyone taken a percentage count of divorced people in today's congregations? That part has not seemed to have been stemmed by the church. Back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, divorced people were not allowed to do anything in the church, if the church allowed them to stay. Now, that has fluxed. Yet, Jesus said, "What god has joined together, let no man separate."

      Like Curt has said, in the future of the church, the gay/lesbian banishment will be looked upon much like we now look upon the Inquisition. A study of church history would do everyone well in understanding how the church has progressed. We even allow women to be heard in church and even vote.

      • Tammy says

        Jesus corrected the Pharisees on many of their interpretations of the Law. Keep in mind, though, that the Law is composed of more than one part. There is the political law (which we are not under as we are under a different political system), the ceremonial law (which was done away with in the New Testament see: Peter) and the moral Law, which stands for all time. Homosexuality falls under the moral law.

        However, this is really beside the point, because we can still prove the point. Jesus corrected errors in the Pharisaical interpretations regularly (see: their views on the Sabbath, their views on adding additional burdens, their views on public fasting, their views on righteousness, etc.), but He never corrected their undisputed view that homosexuality was wrong. Even a cursory look at Jewish history will tell you that NO ONE argued that homosexuality was okay at the time of Jesus. Being God, do you think He just forgot to correct them on this supposedly HUGE misinterpretation … one that He most certainly could have foreseen would be such a huge issue in our time?

        Following Jesus, we have Paul, and ALL of the Church fathers from the beginning. Those Church fathers were well-versed in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and they ALL condemned homosexuality. ALL of them. In fact, the Church for over 2000 years (until the last 30 years or so) completely and thoroughly condemned the practice of homosexuality as sinful.

        So, we have all the quotes in both the Old and New Testaments, over 4000 years of Jewish interpretation of their Scriptures, Jesus' specific "failure" to fix this widespread Jewish "misinterpretation," all of the early Church Fathers, and the entire Church and Church tradition (both East and West) for over 2000 years. And, yet, we are to accept your interpretation now as a refutation?

        I think not. We all have sins that hound us; sins that we think are unfair and that we are unable to bear. God says that we CAN bear them with His help. We do not live for just this world, but for eternity. Some people die young. Some people have horrible illnesses. Some people never even grow up to have sexual feelings. In the scheme of things, bearing a sexual attraction to the wrong gender is a small one … even though I do sympathize. You cannot make the Bible, the Church, and God say something other than they have said for over 6000 years.

        You are welcome to companionship. You are not welcome to sexual activity with a person of the same sex, nor with a person of the opposite sex to whom you are not married. It is as simple as that.

        And, whether the entire world were to think differently, I will still bow to Jesus and the Bible on this.

        • Standing-n-liberty says

          Tammy, you make a separation in the Law which is a recent construct in church history that is not there. The Jews did not separate it. That is a construct of modern day Christianity. If you look at the verse that says, "if you keep the whole law, and offend it in ine pint, you are guilty if all." There is nonsubdivision brought in.

          If you will check, the culture of Jesus' day, they were under Roman rule. Homosexuality was existent in common, everyday knowledge and life. If it were such a bad thing, why did Jesus not specifically address it. He did, howver, address divorce.

          As a theology while in seminary, I had opportunity to really search out the church's doctrinal positions throughout church history. Those doctrines have been in constant flux, changing as different groups of people discuus what the bible is supposed to mean. Even my Greek text has different variants listed for numerous passages. I would challenge you to learn the ancient languages and do a study in linguistics to understand the full text.

          You are merely spouting the platitudes of modern day evangelicals.

  14. Tormented like Lot says

    Stephen… I am living out this reality today. My 20 year old daughter is in a same sex relationship with another woman. As much as you want to be loving and say the right things, it is very difficult. Especially when she has been deceived into thinking there is nothing wrong with it (much like several others who have posted here). At this point all we do is pray for her, love her, and trust God will bring her under conviction for her sin.

    As for those like Curt and Nathan, we know that Satan's first act of deception was to say, "Did God really say..?" He attempted the tactic of misusing the Scriptures in the temptation of Christ. We see it all around us today. People continue to practice eisegesis to make the Bible say what they want it to say.

    We're not surprised because 2 Peter 2 clearly describes the times in which we are now living. I'm moving beyond the horro and anger to real sadness over people like Curt, Nathan, Harry Knox, Matthew Vines, etc.

    For Christians who want to be better equipped to deal with the false teachers (who areeally good at what they do), vist James White's Alpha and Omega Ministries web site at http://www.aomin.com.

    • Standing-n-liberty says

      Or for Christians who want to get away from false teachers, visit other churches and denominations.

    • Kitten says

      I feel really sorry for your daughter. Support her no matter what decision she makes. If she wants to love a girl let her love a girl. There IS NOTHING wrong with it. God gives us our companions, to learn as we will and love as we will.

    • Also Tormented -- says

      Tormented like Lot,
      Thank you for your post. I, too, have a 20 year old daughter in a same-sex relationship. This is new and we are grieving. We've handled it well so far –insofar as no yelling, screaming, etc… My daughter and I have had an extremely close relationship for the last 10 years and I was completely blindsided. Obviously this is not the place for family history, etc. but suffice it to say that we have a traditional Christian family of 5. She is the youngest and up until now, had been the most responsible.

      Her dad & I are so grief-stricken, it's hard to go on. Our oldest has her own rebellion and this has just poured salt in our wounds. I love my daughter, so much, and just want the best for her, but I cannot bear the thought of an eternity in Hell for her. So, like you, we pray for her, love her, and trust God will bring her under conviction for her sin.

      Also, she works in an industry that is very heavily homosexual, so that does not help at all…

      • Standing-n-liberty says

        You show no love toward your daughter. Period. You say she HAD been the most responsible. What you mean is that up to that point she was trying to make you happy by following your rules. I, too, have children. If any of the three came to me, i would not have to restrain any screaming or yelling because there would be no anger. (You may want to read up on the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5.) The only thing that would upset me would be if they did not introduce their partner and make them part of our family.

        The only industry that I know that is really "heavily homosexual" are gay bars. Have you been following all of the churches that are heavily pedophilia?

  15. texasbaptist54 says

    I reminded how sin can find justifcation even by a twisting of clear Scripture. Pity, that. I have noticed that in the end, to the homosexual apologist trying to reconcile his condemned behavior with the the Word of God, it is the Word of God that is found remiss, and his or her homosexual behavior, justified. It's painful to read such posts.

    • Standing-n-liberty says

      I am reminded how over the centuries, churches and people have twisted the scriptures to meet their agendas. It's been said before and worth repeating, it is coincidental how God hates/condemns the same people you do. But Jesus condemned the Pharisees of the day, who held to only part of the law and explained away the part they did not agree with. I have yet to see any church or denomination that holds to the whole of scripture, every part of the revealed word, even the law.

  16. Another Pilgrim says

    In reply to Silas I suggested the following;

    I thought that both Stephan and Curt raised the whole debate on homosexuality to a whole new level and I got the feeling that there was no condemnation coming from either. This is befitting of followers and imitators of Christ.
    Perhaps if you re-read your comment you will see that, maybe unwittingly, you have gone back to repeating what comes very close to what in South Africa we would refer to as 'hate speech"; please allow me to explain.
    You ask, " … ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah?" meaning this is what awaits Curt???? Are you, Silas, totally certain it was homosexuality and only homosexuality the brought destruction on these towns?
    You then follow this up with a bit of condemnation which, I'm loath to say, would make a Pharisee a little proud, namely " … and what you did is you gave in to them….. you did what was easy…. what was fun…. you didn't carry the cross." Could we later chat about Romans 8 : 1 et seq especially after what Curt has spoken of.
    You conclude with " We are to be like Christ"; are you perhaps inferring that Stephan, who appears understanding of the issues and Curt who is approaching the issue as he understands it, are not and you are?
    Speaking to all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ out there; I think we need to follow the lead of Stephan and hear Curt on these matters lest we eventually arrive at the Great White Throne and are asked to account for all the gay and lesbian folk who we have hated right out of His Church into the arms of Satan.
    Thank you Stephan and Curt for your loving nature that seems to be like Christ's

    • Silas R. D says

      I'm sorry If I sounded proud and yes I did sound hateful please forgive me, that is not how we should act. but I'm NOT stepping back on anything I said regarding same sex marriages(as far as it being wrong and apposing the bible).
      I was awed at Stephan's wisdom and thought's, it never crossed my mind to say everything against him…..I don't know what you mean?
      I'm sorry I sounded rude compered to Curt and Nathan I'm inexperienced.

  17. says

    None of the Old Testament law is binding on us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4

  18. Can't We Get Along says

    It's interesting how people pick and choose which aspects of the Bible to follow and which ones to dismiss. If you're going to condemn someone for not following the Bibles teachings to a T, you better take a good, hard, honest look at your own life first, before you start judging others. I think this issue of sexuality is a personal matter that is between each person and God. It's not our place to be judging these people. That is for God to do. It IS our place to love them. I don't believe God really wants us to treat ANYONE as abhorrently as some Christians treat LBGT people. There's always going to be differences of opinion, interpretation, beliefs because NO ONE knows for sure what's what. Religion is based on faith, which cannot be proven. So maybe we can agree to disagree and love each other in the meantime.

    • Standing-n-liberty says

      Here! Here! Appreciate your comment. You have a great understandin of religion/faith.

  19. says

    The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.

  20. says

    Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations – yes, a “gay Christian” is possible. However, the description “gay Christian” is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a “gay Christian,” but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing. If the phrase “gay Christian” refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle – no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian.
    Society changes…Not the Bible, what was correct 2000 years ago in the Bible is still correct today

  21. Rev Limiter says

    Enter Another Pilgrim wrote:_" I think we need to follow the lead of Stephan and hear Curt on these matters lest we eventually arrive at the Great White Throne and are asked to account for all the gay and lesbian folk who we have hated right out of His Church into the arms of Satan"__Please don't lump me in with the "hate preachers"!_In the first place, I don't hate homosexuals! I share the gospel with them in the same manner that I would anyone else! They have broken God's holy law -long before- they ever had homosexual tendencies of any kind! If the topic of being gay or lesbian comes up during our conversation, I'll deal with it but to me the basics need to be dealt with first! (lying, theft, using God's name as a cuss word etc.) Folks need to be confronted with their sin

  22. Rev Limiter says

    One more thought:
    And please don't tell me that it's just my interpretation of the Bible! There are a number of verses condemning homosexuality that a four year old could properly interpret! Curt talks about the "spirit" when he doesn't know the Spirit because he hasn't repented! Repentance is key to salvation and my prayer is that Curt will see this very fact and turn from his gay lifestyle!

    Incidentally Nathan, Stephens article is dead on the money concerning the care a Christian father should have for one of his children!!

  23. Eric Johnson says

    Why does you God expect such servitude? He sounds quite oppressive to me. I recommend two very thoughtful authors of His creation. Emerson and John Muir.

  24. Rev Limiter says

    May I recommend two very thoughtful authors to you?
    The Apostle Paul & the Apostle Peter :<)

    • Standing-n-liberty says

      Paul and Peter couldnt even agree on how to run the first generation church. What makes you think we are doing it right 500 generations later?

  25. Tim says

    As sweet and loving as your article is, it's absolutely misguided and horrible. I only hope your daughter doesn't have same-sex feelings, because your response will do nothing but direct her to a life of guilt and misery.

  26. Shutterbug says

    I think this post is a picture of the Father's heart, both earthly and our heavenly Father. I just want to add this one thing: Though I may agree that homosexuality is a distortion of God's plan, I am no one's judge therefore I am FREE to love everyone no matter their sexual orientation as Christ loves them. In doing so, I believe that many souls will be saved and delivered from the deceitfulness of the enemy. We are to compel people to come into the church by the love of Christ they see in us. This father is showing that Love to his daughter and giving her the choice to choose a loving God who is jealous for her! May more men rise up and tell their daughters who they are in Christ.

  27. Dawn says

    I am confused about something in your article that I hope you will clear for me…..

    This article is assuming your daughter has been converted, saved, regenerated. Until she has been saved by grace, she is not IN Christ, she IS the old 'man' not [yet] passed away. I find difficulty with your response not hitting with her, if she doesn't *know* Christ, they will mean nothing.

  28. Jeff from PA says

    Stephen, we have debated this issue before and we disagree on Biblical interpretation here, so I am not going to go down that route again because it will probably not be productive. Also, from a writing level, using your daughter as an example here is a powerful appeal to pathos, however, I think it is important to separate using your daughter as metaphor and reality. For instance, I am a father of a 20 month year old – I can definitely relate. I can speculate on how I would react to her first date, her driving, etc. However, speculation is much different than reality. — From my experience, some of the most hardened people on this issue (having a child that is gay and viewing it as sin) have their hearts drastically changed when they see it up close. — So, while powerful rhetorically to use your daughter as an example, the reality is always different. Given this – that we don't know how we will really react in these situations – I would like to ask one simple question for you to speculate on: Your post seems to assume that being gay is just sexual – and that people need to resist that because it is sinful. When, in my experience, for my friends that have been with their partners for 35 years (or some more), just like people who have been married for many years, sex is often the least factor in their relationship (maybe even absent in some of the older couples – I definitely do not know). It seems to me that you are reducing these beautiful relationships to just sex – when, just like great marriages, sex is not the main factor. So, a few questions: 1. What if your daughter doesn't tell you that she is sexually attracted to another girl; instead, says that she is in love with her? What if she is in love with her for years? 2. Beyond your daughter, what if a couple wants to be together, but accepts not having sex – is that still sinful? 3. What if, the multiple couples I know that have been together for decades are no longer having sex? What possible Biblical reason would you suggest says that they should not be together? — By the way, even though we very much disagree here, I greatly appreciate your thoughtfulness and continued pursuit of this issue. In my experience, working with young people, I believe that it is the number one factor pushing young people away from Churches.

  29. Bob Blackburn says

    It appears if you don’t have a dog in the fight you may want to keep comments to yourself .
    Stephen attempted to take on a touchy subject in his mind and mind of many in a loving way however there are many consenting opinions … The subject of Heaven & Hell
    Is not decided by us and our intrerpritation of anything .. Especially keep your opinion of truth to yourself .. Scripture doesn’t command you to go out and judge it says Love

  30. Mary says

    I would encourage everyone to get on Netflix and watch a movie called For the Bible Tells Me So. I was raised southern baptist and eventually progressed to nondenominational Christian. This movie broke down what I was taught and really helped me understand what go was saying. It is not one sided and doesn’t serve a particular agenda. Please take the time to watch it.

  31. Everett says

    I would suspect that those who are arguing against the Bible's statements on homosexuality would also argue toward something like universalism in salvation and/or no existence of hell (along the same lines as Rob Bell). There would also tend to be a downplaying on their part of the Bible as plenary, verbal inspiration. These are just hunches but I have rarely found that the discussion begins with homosexuality. There is usually a different understanding of the Bible, God, salvation, sin, etc.

  32. voiceofreason says

    Telling someone that their sexuality is NOT their identity ? – That their identity is rooted in an ancient jewish zombie ? = All of you who support this are brainwashed cultists, and sick in the head. Wake up !

  33. says

    Scripture, science, psychiatry & sense all say homosexuality is an abherration. Until recently, because of compromise against sanity to be politically twisted it was rightly listed in the DSM as mental illness. It is sometimes encouraged by misdeveloped physical causes (lack of hormones of the proper mix for masculine or feminine acceptance by others or security with self. It is always a sign of psychological trauma around sexuality (loss or unavailabity of same sex parent or abuse/neglect by the opposite sex parent. Your child has no more right to a perverted lifestyle, call it “love” all you like than they have to swallow glass. Both are deadly. In the past, society sought to save citizens from Spiritually (and physically) hazardous material. It is not love. It is not to be condoned any more than the child eating glass is right when she says “it tastes good” tasting her own blood.

    My only issue with the article (aside from the ice cream panacea) is that the mother should be having this talk with a girl, not a man.

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